It has been my experience all my life as well that when you ask certain people questions about why they did something, they take it personally and often even consider it a "battle cry". great post
Because of my language limits (only human language I know is English), the Autistic community I interact with is also English.
They suggest this is a neurotypical vs neurodivergent thing.
When I read from other cultures (especially those indigenous to this continent) I'm told this is an English and/or Western European hyper-competitive thing.
I regularly find more interesting questions than have definitive studies providing answers.
I think all of us are being herded into binaries (typical/divergent) when the reality is that we're just experiencing something, all of us, and none of us are having the same experience....to what degree they can/do vary, would be fascinating to know, but I doubt that's possible...right?
Natural sciences can tell us that there is a wide variety of the human experience, and it is not a natural science that suggests that some are "good" and some are "bad", or that there are simplistic binaries.
Social sciences tell us (especially those doing anthropology of Western cultures) that there are specific worldviews that grew out of the unique history of Western Europe, and were then imposed externally on this continent through ongoing settler-colonialism. Those worldviews then generated hierarchies and imposed a narrow definition of what is "normal". The further you are from these social constructs and social hierarchies that impose a notion of "normal", the more you will be pushed out of society (including systemically made poor, institutionalized, imprisoned, or worse).
If we lived in a society that didn't pathologize difference, then the scientific method could help us explore the full range of the human experience. While I agree that isn't possible under the constraints of THIS specific culture we both live under (including how it is violently exported to other parts of the word), it is not a limitation of the scientific method or of the species that we don't already have a large body of science.
None of us are having the identical experience, but from a social level that is usefully explained by intersectionality. Not being identical doesn't mean we can't recognize patterns and be able to have short-forms to better understand each other. Even with the ideological limits of Western (Western Asian, Western European, and empire/colonial expansion) medicine, there is in the recent century (slower in parts of the Western world) a recognition that biological females and biological males aren't identical.
While gender is not a binary, and more like a spectrum like Autism is (I believe you have seen these colour wheels https://laconciergepsychologist.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/autism-spectrum.jpg ), we live under a culture that hasn't caught up to these basic facts. We have Western governments (and not only the USA) scapegoating people who don't fall into what they claim is the "norm", talking yet again about opening up vast networks of institutions to house us (the real reason that few Autistic people were visible 3+ generations ago).
great reply. Now I'm wondering if I'd want to take a pill that lets you "inhabit another's perspective" for like a day, or a week...let neurodivergent folks swap with neurotypical folks, etc....
This is where I will sound like a broken record again ☺️ , and suggest that this is a cultural thing and not something that a "Freaky Friday" movie script between individuals can actually do much with. ("What Women Want" from 2000 is essentially the same story)
I don't see this as an individualistic "Hero's Journey", but one where it is the culture that is limiting individuals from building better kinship relations with beings that are different from themselves. It is the culture that needs to change, not merely a few individuals having a new experience.
-----------
I've shouted out on Metaviews and referenced "Becoming Kin", which I find very helpful to opening minds and thinking of how to make better relations.
I am familiar with the words, and the use of a thanksgiving address before starting meetings. It puts the minds of the participants into a particular perspective of thinking beyond themselves and even beyond humans.
This is the opposite of the way people are encouraged to think in Western/Individualistic/Capitalist/etc cultures. In this culture we are actively encouraged to have any engagement to be a competition, to think of other beings as tools we can use (often thinking of most other life as a commodity -- value only in how we can own it or what "use" it is for us). Western economic theories are based on only harnessing the most simplistic aspects of animal psychology (and only the masculine at that), and never to recognize or harness the intrinsic value of the full spectrum of life.
Under different worldviews, that "colour wheel" wouldn't have an alleged center that people are claimed to diverge from in so many directions (not a binary -- it isn't center vs not-center, as not being included in the center is a distance in so many different directions).
One of the most important ways I "think differently" than the dominant culture in North America isn't directly because of my being Autistic, but because I have read enough of other cultures and worldviews to no longer think that the culture of USA/Canada is inevitable and to no longer identify with it. I can join in with others who do anthropology of these Western cultures, and be able to see the flaws without feeling like some aspect of myself is under attack.
This is the first step to seeing what is outside of yourself -- to recognize that certain these things are outside of yourself, and not a part of yourself or of the species.
I think you misunderstood me. I was simply responding to this passage you wrote:
"If we lived in a society that didn't pathologize difference, then the scientific method could help us explore the full range of the human experience. While I agree that isn't possible under the constraints of THIS specific culture we both live under (including how it is violently exported to other parts of the word), it is not a limitation of the scientific method or of the species that we don't already have a large body of science."
It wasn't about "curing" anything. It's about the limitations of what we will believe and can believe and how we feel about both. Your reply to mine is RUSSELL replying and RUSSELL thinking. We're trying to articulate things through this language (with all it's social and historical hang ups (and perks), but if I spent one day as RUSSELL and couldn't be me while I was you, but retained the full experience after, would I want that? would that be "fun?" "terrifying?" "helpful? (for me to further know and like you)"
What if I felt what it's like to be you then felt extreme sorrow, or jealousy, or neither... etc.
it's a thought experiment, not a cure. I think this society can attempt to brainwash all of us as much as it wants to, but ultimately, they can't wash the part of me that exists beyond the brain. I believe our brains are interlocutors of our experience, so when we talk about neuro this and that, we're talking about a feature of our experience, not who we are. Intersectionality is this concept played out with too much ownership....?
I formally converted to Tibetan Buddhism, which has some significant differences from other streams of buddhism. I've been interested in organized religion, spiritual belief systems, and cults and have explored several over more than five decades now, some more intensively than others. That particular "land centre" (used primarily for retreats usually lasting anywhere from a weekend to several weeks each, sometimes with two or more different ones running concurrently or overlapping) is part of Shambhala International, which includes three others, and numerous city centers in various parts of the world [including ones in Canada -- Halifax, Montreal, Ottawa, Toronto, and Vancouver leap to mind] as well as the monastery in Cape Breton, NS, called Gampo Abbey]. There have been several significant scandals in that community over the decades since it was established in North America decades ago. Spirituality is one of my lifelong special interests, essentially, perhaps extending over many lifetimes [for those of us who, like me, find reincarnation credible.] Although I only recently came to self-diagnose as on the "Spectrum", it sure offers some insight into the fascination which led me to do some deep dives into several diverse cults, fitting in no better or worse than in various other segments of society. Thanks for your reply.
I do have a copy, purchased after attending a "mandatory" workshop on *nonviolent communication* over a decade ago at a rural Buddhist retreat centre where I was "living, working, and practicing" at the time (for nine rather increasingly chaotic months).
The whole (essentially full-immersion experience -- for me, particularly, as I rarely left the centre at all [and tended not to socialize outside of the actual programs we ran, which already minimized opportunities for social interactions -- and which I literally just realized was part of the allure]) was incredibly intense and became quite volatile as several residential staff and volunteers had interpersonal conflict (with some full-blown breakdowns) that quickly escalated from verbal into physical aggression and altercations (and ultimately exaggerated allegations of attempted murder) and *eventually* resulted in community meetings and the workshop previously mentioned, conducted by a mediator who was brought in from the larger buddhist community. [Some folks also withdrew at times, isolated in their respective quarters to self-medicate with alcohol to the point that they needed to be sent to detox at a nearby hospital out of concern for their safety.]
I have another book on the subject by the same author, purchased at the same time -- in all honesty, I've never finished reading either of them. (I opted instead to gradually ease myself out of my open-ended commitment and quietly returned to the city and a somewhat more balanced lifestyle.)
"Do no harm" is a fine aspiration, trickier in practice, and yes, "one size" does not fit all was my conclusion.
Separate from the note about the workshop, I am surprised to hear about the experience at the Buddhist retreat center -- the experience you share doesn't match the stereotypes many of us would have of such a center.
It has been my experience all my life as well that when you ask certain people questions about why they did something, they take it personally and often even consider it a "battle cry". great post
Because of my language limits (only human language I know is English), the Autistic community I interact with is also English.
They suggest this is a neurotypical vs neurodivergent thing.
When I read from other cultures (especially those indigenous to this continent) I'm told this is an English and/or Western European hyper-competitive thing.
I regularly find more interesting questions than have definitive studies providing answers.
I think all of us are being herded into binaries (typical/divergent) when the reality is that we're just experiencing something, all of us, and none of us are having the same experience....to what degree they can/do vary, would be fascinating to know, but I doubt that's possible...right?
Multiple things can be true at once.
Natural sciences can tell us that there is a wide variety of the human experience, and it is not a natural science that suggests that some are "good" and some are "bad", or that there are simplistic binaries.
Social sciences tell us (especially those doing anthropology of Western cultures) that there are specific worldviews that grew out of the unique history of Western Europe, and were then imposed externally on this continent through ongoing settler-colonialism. Those worldviews then generated hierarchies and imposed a narrow definition of what is "normal". The further you are from these social constructs and social hierarchies that impose a notion of "normal", the more you will be pushed out of society (including systemically made poor, institutionalized, imprisoned, or worse).
If we lived in a society that didn't pathologize difference, then the scientific method could help us explore the full range of the human experience. While I agree that isn't possible under the constraints of THIS specific culture we both live under (including how it is violently exported to other parts of the word), it is not a limitation of the scientific method or of the species that we don't already have a large body of science.
None of us are having the identical experience, but from a social level that is usefully explained by intersectionality. Not being identical doesn't mean we can't recognize patterns and be able to have short-forms to better understand each other. Even with the ideological limits of Western (Western Asian, Western European, and empire/colonial expansion) medicine, there is in the recent century (slower in parts of the Western world) a recognition that biological females and biological males aren't identical.
While gender is not a binary, and more like a spectrum like Autism is (I believe you have seen these colour wheels https://laconciergepsychologist.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/autism-spectrum.jpg ), we live under a culture that hasn't caught up to these basic facts. We have Western governments (and not only the USA) scapegoating people who don't fall into what they claim is the "norm", talking yet again about opening up vast networks of institutions to house us (the real reason that few Autistic people were visible 3+ generations ago).
great reply. Now I'm wondering if I'd want to take a pill that lets you "inhabit another's perspective" for like a day, or a week...let neurodivergent folks swap with neurotypical folks, etc....
As always, thanks for continuing to engage!
This is where I will sound like a broken record again ☺️ , and suggest that this is a cultural thing and not something that a "Freaky Friday" movie script between individuals can actually do much with. ("What Women Want" from 2000 is essentially the same story)
I don't see this as an individualistic "Hero's Journey", but one where it is the culture that is limiting individuals from building better kinship relations with beings that are different from themselves. It is the culture that needs to change, not merely a few individuals having a new experience.
-----------
I've shouted out on Metaviews and referenced "Becoming Kin", which I find very helpful to opening minds and thinking of how to make better relations.
https://r.flora.ca/p/bad-indians-book-club-reading-at
(The author is Anishinaabe. To flip to Haudenosaunee)
I have a copy of this book: "Words That Come Before All Else"
https://www.skanonhcenter.org/product/words-that-come-before-all-else/901
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CQ5awL2Qzoo
I am familiar with the words, and the use of a thanksgiving address before starting meetings. It puts the minds of the participants into a particular perspective of thinking beyond themselves and even beyond humans.
This is the opposite of the way people are encouraged to think in Western/Individualistic/Capitalist/etc cultures. In this culture we are actively encouraged to have any engagement to be a competition, to think of other beings as tools we can use (often thinking of most other life as a commodity -- value only in how we can own it or what "use" it is for us). Western economic theories are based on only harnessing the most simplistic aspects of animal psychology (and only the masculine at that), and never to recognize or harness the intrinsic value of the full spectrum of life.
Under different worldviews, that "colour wheel" wouldn't have an alleged center that people are claimed to diverge from in so many directions (not a binary -- it isn't center vs not-center, as not being included in the center is a distance in so many different directions).
One of the most important ways I "think differently" than the dominant culture in North America isn't directly because of my being Autistic, but because I have read enough of other cultures and worldviews to no longer think that the culture of USA/Canada is inevitable and to no longer identify with it. I can join in with others who do anthropology of these Western cultures, and be able to see the flaws without feeling like some aspect of myself is under attack.
This is the first step to seeing what is outside of yourself -- to recognize that certain these things are outside of yourself, and not a part of yourself or of the species.
I think you misunderstood me. I was simply responding to this passage you wrote:
"If we lived in a society that didn't pathologize difference, then the scientific method could help us explore the full range of the human experience. While I agree that isn't possible under the constraints of THIS specific culture we both live under (including how it is violently exported to other parts of the word), it is not a limitation of the scientific method or of the species that we don't already have a large body of science."
It wasn't about "curing" anything. It's about the limitations of what we will believe and can believe and how we feel about both. Your reply to mine is RUSSELL replying and RUSSELL thinking. We're trying to articulate things through this language (with all it's social and historical hang ups (and perks), but if I spent one day as RUSSELL and couldn't be me while I was you, but retained the full experience after, would I want that? would that be "fun?" "terrifying?" "helpful? (for me to further know and like you)"
What if I felt what it's like to be you then felt extreme sorrow, or jealousy, or neither... etc.
it's a thought experiment, not a cure. I think this society can attempt to brainwash all of us as much as it wants to, but ultimately, they can't wash the part of me that exists beyond the brain. I believe our brains are interlocutors of our experience, so when we talk about neuro this and that, we're talking about a feature of our experience, not who we are. Intersectionality is this concept played out with too much ownership....?
I formally converted to Tibetan Buddhism, which has some significant differences from other streams of buddhism. I've been interested in organized religion, spiritual belief systems, and cults and have explored several over more than five decades now, some more intensively than others. That particular "land centre" (used primarily for retreats usually lasting anywhere from a weekend to several weeks each, sometimes with two or more different ones running concurrently or overlapping) is part of Shambhala International, which includes three others, and numerous city centers in various parts of the world [including ones in Canada -- Halifax, Montreal, Ottawa, Toronto, and Vancouver leap to mind] as well as the monastery in Cape Breton, NS, called Gampo Abbey]. There have been several significant scandals in that community over the decades since it was established in North America decades ago. Spirituality is one of my lifelong special interests, essentially, perhaps extending over many lifetimes [for those of us who, like me, find reincarnation credible.] Although I only recently came to self-diagnose as on the "Spectrum", it sure offers some insight into the fascination which led me to do some deep dives into several diverse cults, fitting in no better or worse than in various other segments of society. Thanks for your reply.
I do have a copy, purchased after attending a "mandatory" workshop on *nonviolent communication* over a decade ago at a rural Buddhist retreat centre where I was "living, working, and practicing" at the time (for nine rather increasingly chaotic months).
The whole (essentially full-immersion experience -- for me, particularly, as I rarely left the centre at all [and tended not to socialize outside of the actual programs we ran, which already minimized opportunities for social interactions -- and which I literally just realized was part of the allure]) was incredibly intense and became quite volatile as several residential staff and volunteers had interpersonal conflict (with some full-blown breakdowns) that quickly escalated from verbal into physical aggression and altercations (and ultimately exaggerated allegations of attempted murder) and *eventually* resulted in community meetings and the workshop previously mentioned, conducted by a mediator who was brought in from the larger buddhist community. [Some folks also withdrew at times, isolated in their respective quarters to self-medicate with alcohol to the point that they needed to be sent to detox at a nearby hospital out of concern for their safety.]
I have another book on the subject by the same author, purchased at the same time -- in all honesty, I've never finished reading either of them. (I opted instead to gradually ease myself out of my open-ended commitment and quietly returned to the city and a somewhat more balanced lifestyle.)
"Do no harm" is a fine aspiration, trickier in practice, and yes, "one size" does not fit all was my conclusion.
Thanks so much for sharing.
Separate from the note about the workshop, I am surprised to hear about the experience at the Buddhist retreat center -- the experience you share doesn't match the stereotypes many of us would have of such a center.