as someone who's always interested in brokering peace, I think your strategy and Jesse's strategy can both work because people have very different personalities that interfere with methodology.
There's not one path or one cure in my opinion.
I also say this is someone who has been white, passing white and not passing white, depending on the situation I'm in... I'm also the father of three multi ethnic individuals who don't share all of my ethnicity... I just think it's very complicated... :)
I wrote this in the context of me debating with myself (to speak about a controvercial issue or not), not that I believed I was or would be in a debate with Jesse. The image of the two males arguing were both supposed to represent me.
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In order to discuss strategy, methology, or a "cure", there is probably a need to discuss overall goals (what the "sickness" is).
My goal is to try to encourage people to move outside the information silo of individualism in order to expose them to systems such as Racism in order to dismantle harmful systems. (I spoke in the past about malware and anti-malware -- I consider Racism to be malware that needs to be erradicated)
I'm wondering if you can help me understand alternate goals expressed in Jesse's article? I'm not trying to be antagonistic -- I'm genuinely confused about other possible goals, and wouldn't mind another interpretation.
What I read was a desire to make some individuals more comfortable with a topic that makes them feel uncomfortable.
Was this an article instead about how to respond to a known (maybe even out and proud) White Supremacist who was trying to ask you if you were part of, or outside of, the 14 words?
In that case I wouldn't want to have any association with them or their conceptualization of Whiteness, as I am not one of their people.
It is an entirely different conversation if I'm talking to a racialized person, and I try to distance myself from the systems of Whiteness. Whiteness and Racialization is about systems, hierarchies, and power --- not about individuals and how they may want to be identified/labelled/etc.
People focusing on themselves and other people as individuals is what has been protecting systems such as Racism for centuries. Within the narrow context of individualism, Racism (a set of systems, institutions, etc) is made invisible and for many treated as a synonym for individual rudeness, prejudices or bigotry.
Some people believe they should be looking for some "Racist Uncle", when they should be looking at the Constitution of Canada and the so-called "Charter of Rights and Freedoms" (11 BNA Acts, Canada Act 1982, etc),
My personal ancestory and ethnicity is largely irrelevant to the conversation, except for the priviledges I have been granted by being nearly always non-racialized (the relative and subjective nature of racialization was included in the posting), and thus it is far less dangerous for me to speak about these systemic issues than it would be for someone who was far more racialized.
BTW: Ethnicity as a concept doesn't include or imply a hierarchy, while Racism does -- they aren't synonyms, any more than "Science" and "Technology" are synonyms.
I guess how "this gave me the ick" translates to an American in his 40s is not what you meant by that. That's not really "peaceful" so I was really addressing what I see, which is white people talking about white people to other white people, and as another white person, who also wasn't self-identifying that way at any point in his life (for three different reasons), I see no problem with different white people taking different approaches to dealing with whiteness. I want all race talk to go away, but I also am not naive enough to pretend that that solves what's really at stake: systemic issues that have tremendous clout and lasting power...I don't have time to click either link, as i'm working, but I'm also pretty trepedatious about reading anything about plans to exterminate me and my relatives, as it's not really something I need to read about (i experience it often)...so I guess I was just trying to point out that when white people disagree with other white people about race, I see no clear victor or moral hierarchy...so I was able to like your take and Jesse's take. And I'm sorry if I'm not making sense today! I'm trying my best, but I'm admittedly rushed right now.
Totally, truly, appreciate how much time and thought and attention you give to me and my queries, and I did read all of your reply, I didn't skim it. I just didn't click on the links...
"I guess how "this gave me the ick" translates to an American in his 40s is not what you meant by that. That's not really "peaceful" so I was really addressing what I see, which is white people talking about white people to other white people,"
I was writing about an idea giving me the ick, not a person. Jesse even replied to me a few times in the past indicating that I've mistaken his trying out of ideas as being an expression of his own ideas.
The other confusion is that there was white people talking about a set of SYSTEMS to other white people. I wasn't talking about white people to other white people. That is one of the core problems that all these books I reference talk about: that some people identify with those systems so strongly that they can't even think about these systems without thinking that they as individuals are being spoken about and attacked.
Racism, Racialization and Whiteness aren't about individuals, but are a set of systems which are embeded within institutions, cultures, etc.
It took me a summer of heavy-book-reading (COVID lockdown summer) to even recognize that I had something to learn. And this wasn't a casual thing I was doing on the side of having other priorities (family, etc, etc) like you do.
And this is from someone who has been a Systems thinkers my entire life, and yet I had a blind spot (for cultural reasons) that blocked me from understanding what Racism is.
Note: I am a white person talking about Racism/Whiteness (systems -- not "white people") with another white person. I wouldn't participate in a conversation about "white people", whatever that means.
I understand everything, in both posts. I guess since I was a victim of racism long before I was given the privilege of passing, which was brief, and then I was again "on the other side" I see it differently. I can't undo my internal sense of fear and panic and "this is fucking bullshit and very unfair" when I see people coming up with "systems within the system" of race. What I liked about Jesse's take is that we can "disrupt" the flow of racism by calling out "race" for what it is (a lie) and if the kids are paying attention, they'll mimic that and a few generations later, kids will hear "race" the way I hear "cooties" or the way we laugh at doctors who "bled" patients to cure them of "humors" etc.
I'm looking for a long-lasting paradigm shift. BUT, I was excluded, told I wasn't white, called "Jew Boy" and other stuff like that. Some kids even made holocaust jokes...I didn't even understand how "jew" was a race (I still don't) so when people said black people were another race, I got confused and it never clicked.
I don't even know what I'm trying to say, except that you and me talking about it helps me, and reading Jesse's piece helped me, and I think the more white people own/confuse/speak truth/and reconcile about the subject, the better.
One last note: It's truly terrifying to see what ICE is doing here and connect it to this conversation, so I do think this will be "solved" or "made worse" based on how this conversation goes down in every american household over the next 2-3 years. And that's IF we have an election in 2028, which I'm still optimistic about.
Feel free to keep this dialogue running! I do agree and understand your systems approach. But to an outsider dropping in to this public post with public comments, it does appear to be whites talking about whiteness, and that's sort of why I hate online conversations, but without online conversations, I don't even know you, let alone well enough to talk about such triggering, deep issues in public. So thanks, Internet, Jesse, and to you Russell!
as someone who's always interested in brokering peace, I think your strategy and Jesse's strategy can both work because people have very different personalities that interfere with methodology.
There's not one path or one cure in my opinion.
I also say this is someone who has been white, passing white and not passing white, depending on the situation I'm in... I'm also the father of three multi ethnic individuals who don't share all of my ethnicity... I just think it's very complicated... :)
Is there a lack of peace?
I wrote this in the context of me debating with myself (to speak about a controvercial issue or not), not that I believed I was or would be in a debate with Jesse. The image of the two males arguing were both supposed to represent me.
-----
In order to discuss strategy, methology, or a "cure", there is probably a need to discuss overall goals (what the "sickness" is).
My goal is to try to encourage people to move outside the information silo of individualism in order to expose them to systems such as Racism in order to dismantle harmful systems. (I spoke in the past about malware and anti-malware -- I consider Racism to be malware that needs to be erradicated)
https://r.flora.ca/p/nice-canadian-racism
--------------
I'm wondering if you can help me understand alternate goals expressed in Jesse's article? I'm not trying to be antagonistic -- I'm genuinely confused about other possible goals, and wouldn't mind another interpretation.
What I read was a desire to make some individuals more comfortable with a topic that makes them feel uncomfortable.
Was this an article instead about how to respond to a known (maybe even out and proud) White Supremacist who was trying to ask you if you were part of, or outside of, the 14 words?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourteen_Words
In that case I wouldn't want to have any association with them or their conceptualization of Whiteness, as I am not one of their people.
It is an entirely different conversation if I'm talking to a racialized person, and I try to distance myself from the systems of Whiteness. Whiteness and Racialization is about systems, hierarchies, and power --- not about individuals and how they may want to be identified/labelled/etc.
People focusing on themselves and other people as individuals is what has been protecting systems such as Racism for centuries. Within the narrow context of individualism, Racism (a set of systems, institutions, etc) is made invisible and for many treated as a synonym for individual rudeness, prejudices or bigotry.
Some people believe they should be looking for some "Racist Uncle", when they should be looking at the Constitution of Canada and the so-called "Charter of Rights and Freedoms" (11 BNA Acts, Canada Act 1982, etc),
My personal ancestory and ethnicity is largely irrelevant to the conversation, except for the priviledges I have been granted by being nearly always non-racialized (the relative and subjective nature of racialization was included in the posting), and thus it is far less dangerous for me to speak about these systemic issues than it would be for someone who was far more racialized.
BTW: Ethnicity as a concept doesn't include or imply a hierarchy, while Racism does -- they aren't synonyms, any more than "Science" and "Technology" are synonyms.
I guess how "this gave me the ick" translates to an American in his 40s is not what you meant by that. That's not really "peaceful" so I was really addressing what I see, which is white people talking about white people to other white people, and as another white person, who also wasn't self-identifying that way at any point in his life (for three different reasons), I see no problem with different white people taking different approaches to dealing with whiteness. I want all race talk to go away, but I also am not naive enough to pretend that that solves what's really at stake: systemic issues that have tremendous clout and lasting power...I don't have time to click either link, as i'm working, but I'm also pretty trepedatious about reading anything about plans to exterminate me and my relatives, as it's not really something I need to read about (i experience it often)...so I guess I was just trying to point out that when white people disagree with other white people about race, I see no clear victor or moral hierarchy...so I was able to like your take and Jesse's take. And I'm sorry if I'm not making sense today! I'm trying my best, but I'm admittedly rushed right now.
Totally, truly, appreciate how much time and thought and attention you give to me and my queries, and I did read all of your reply, I didn't skim it. I just didn't click on the links...
I might as well express that I'm confused.
"I guess how "this gave me the ick" translates to an American in his 40s is not what you meant by that. That's not really "peaceful" so I was really addressing what I see, which is white people talking about white people to other white people,"
I was writing about an idea giving me the ick, not a person. Jesse even replied to me a few times in the past indicating that I've mistaken his trying out of ideas as being an expression of his own ideas.
The other confusion is that there was white people talking about a set of SYSTEMS to other white people. I wasn't talking about white people to other white people. That is one of the core problems that all these books I reference talk about: that some people identify with those systems so strongly that they can't even think about these systems without thinking that they as individuals are being spoken about and attacked.
Racism, Racialization and Whiteness aren't about individuals, but are a set of systems which are embeded within institutions, cultures, etc.
Racism isn't something to think about in a rush.
It took me a summer of heavy-book-reading (COVID lockdown summer) to even recognize that I had something to learn. And this wasn't a casual thing I was doing on the side of having other priorities (family, etc, etc) like you do.
And this is from someone who has been a Systems thinkers my entire life, and yet I had a blind spot (for cultural reasons) that blocked me from understanding what Racism is.
Note: I am a white person talking about Racism/Whiteness (systems -- not "white people") with another white person. I wouldn't participate in a conversation about "white people", whatever that means.
I understand everything, in both posts. I guess since I was a victim of racism long before I was given the privilege of passing, which was brief, and then I was again "on the other side" I see it differently. I can't undo my internal sense of fear and panic and "this is fucking bullshit and very unfair" when I see people coming up with "systems within the system" of race. What I liked about Jesse's take is that we can "disrupt" the flow of racism by calling out "race" for what it is (a lie) and if the kids are paying attention, they'll mimic that and a few generations later, kids will hear "race" the way I hear "cooties" or the way we laugh at doctors who "bled" patients to cure them of "humors" etc.
I'm looking for a long-lasting paradigm shift. BUT, I was excluded, told I wasn't white, called "Jew Boy" and other stuff like that. Some kids even made holocaust jokes...I didn't even understand how "jew" was a race (I still don't) so when people said black people were another race, I got confused and it never clicked.
I don't even know what I'm trying to say, except that you and me talking about it helps me, and reading Jesse's piece helped me, and I think the more white people own/confuse/speak truth/and reconcile about the subject, the better.
One last note: It's truly terrifying to see what ICE is doing here and connect it to this conversation, so I do think this will be "solved" or "made worse" based on how this conversation goes down in every american household over the next 2-3 years. And that's IF we have an election in 2028, which I'm still optimistic about.
Feel free to keep this dialogue running! I do agree and understand your systems approach. But to an outsider dropping in to this public post with public comments, it does appear to be whites talking about whiteness, and that's sort of why I hate online conversations, but without online conversations, I don't even know you, let alone well enough to talk about such triggering, deep issues in public. So thanks, Internet, Jesse, and to you Russell!